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Rasheeda Bhagat

(Recently in Srinagar)

CONSIDERING the political realities on the ground, plebiscite is no longer an option, but to ward off "the ghost of atomic warfare" Indian and Pakistan will have to resolve the Jammu and Kashmir dispute within two years, the Hurriyat Conference Chairman, Mr Abdul Gani Bhat, told Business Line in an interview.

Excerpts:

How do you read Prime Minister Vajpayee's announcement and subsequent developments on Kashmir?

The statements from both Delhi and Islamabad show people who can read tomorrow. I hope the talks will happen and a solution found.

What do you see as this solution?

Of the disputes between India and Pakistan, the most disputed is Jammu and Kashmir, a permanent settlement of which is necessary. This needs to be resolved as both are nuclear countries and when two nuclear countries cannot resolve their disputes through negotiations, the dimensions can be imagined. To ward off the ghost of an atomic war they will have to address this issue and achieve a breakthrough within two years as it can't wait and we can't wait.

But for this compromise and flexibility are required. Do you think all the parties involved are ready for this?

In any dispute, if you don't rise above your stated positions, you can't move forward.

What can be a solution? You've been harping on plebiscite.

Well, that was there earlier option. But today if we look at the political realities on the ground probably the option of asking the people if they want to stay with India or Pakistan may be not be possible. But if talks happen, between India, Pakistan and the people of J&K, any acceptable or honourable solution can emerge.

When you say people of J&K, who will talk on their behalf?

The people who truly represent them.

Would not that be the elected government?

Not at all. Did Gandhi win an election or Nelson Mandela? They were not returned to any Parliament or Legislative Assembly.

So how do you determine the true representatives?

Those who represent the true sentiments of the people of Jammu and Kashmir. That sentiment is that Kashmir is a disputed place...

You mean the Hurriyat?

Of course, yeh seedhi baat hei (that's simple). Elections cannot solve this problem; despite elections India and Pakistan have fought three wars over Kashmir.

But at least 40 per cent people came to cast their votes.

We know how they came. Lock up the security forces in the barracks, ask a third party to organise the elections and then let us see how many people come to vote.

But do you have hope from Mr Vajpayee's latest initiative?

Oh yes, his statement shows a person who is able to read tomorrow; the writing on the wall and the timing. His gesture is commendable.

Your comments on Mufti's `healing touch'.

What healing touch can anybody bring without addressing the core problem of J&K? That can be addressed only by a dialogue between India, Pakistan and the people of the state. Even today human rights violations and indiscriminate killings are taking place, as also custodial killings. But this time I see a relaxed and near normal situation here. Doesn't it show the people are fed up and want peace?

Please do not misconstrue adjustability for surrender. No doubt there is a change in the situation here... the PM's statement has raised hope as also Pakistan's positive response.

The Ambassadors are going to start talking, the bus service is about to start, the people of both the countries have started visiting each other.

All this has raised a glimmer of hope. But it should not be mistaken that this problem has been solved and everything is alright.

In Pakistan, even the Islamic parties are saying that rather than live under American hegemony, they'd like peace with India provided there is no "sellout" on Kashmir and an `honourable' solution emerges with some give and take on either side.

This is not an issue involving territory... it involves sentiments... it is something which is ingrained in our souls. We have laid down lives in tens of thousands. We have made sacrifices for what? Some piece of land? I don't know what you mean by give and take.

So you are still for independence?

I cannot say that now... when negotiations take place, we can find a solution that is acceptable to all.

Can that be we keep our Kashmir and Pakistan keeps PoK?

A. Jhagdey ki jo buniyad hei who jhagdey ka hal nahi ho sakta. (The root of the problem cannot be its solution.) And the line which has been drawn across people's hearts can never be a permanent border.

Then what do you want?

I would not like to say anything about solution at the moment... except that it cannot be determined by India or Pakistan but by the people of J&K.

Why are you not talking with Mr N.N. Vora?

He doesn't have any mandate... our agenda is permanent solution on which he cannot talk.

One statement I heard in Pakistan, even though a little bizarre, was that while India and Pakistan squabble over Kashmir, the US may help you get azadi from both and then establish a military base here. It would be a strategic presence in the region. Your comments.

First of all will the US want to come here? Two, China will not agree; the Chinese would not want the Americans to sit on their heads.

But hypothetically speaking, would you want such help from the US?

Who is the US to get us anything? Azadi bhikhariyo ki tarah hasil nahi ki jati... (independence is not got through begging); azadi is got through blood... .

But too much innocent blood has already flown.

That is true. It happened in Algeria.. If not today, tomorrow you'll have to see the reality.

But the innocent people of Kashmir are suffering in this turmoil.. look at their health status, their education... the economy. Is anybody concerned about their future?

But when you don't have a future, how can you think of a future? Why don't you listen to us and solve this problem on a permanent basis? Then we'll think of education, health, etc.

Mr Vajpayee also announced a Rs 1,000-crore package, one lakh jobs...

Man does not live by bread alone. We are not economic animals.. we may be social animals yes, but agar hum aap ko economic animals dikhayi detey hei tau phir ghas ki baat kariye (if we appear as economic animals to you, then talk of grass). We have certain intellectual and spiritual cravings, and we want a solution to this issue, in evolving which both India and Pakistan will benefit.

But if there is some solution in your mind, why can't you spell it out?

Aap hamarey kharidar hi nahi hei... my customer is sitting in Delhi and Islamabad. If I spell it out now, things can get spoilt.

Do you think that Mr Ram Jethmalani was sincere and on the right track?

Yes, but unfortunately those in the corridors of power didn't want him to succeed.

What do you think of operation Sarp Vinash?

They are killing poor gujjars in the name of this operation. This is a war and in wars nobody speaks the truth.

It looks as though the Ayodhya dispute is getting solved. Are you happy?

I have no comment; I'm not interested in this issue.

As a Muslim you're not interested in the resolution of an issue that will bring some relief to Indian Muslims?

I have no interest... because my future is in Kashmir... an issue which involves the people's flesh, blood and sentiment. It's not bricks and stones that I'm fighting for. I'm fighting for a cause which is much nobler than many issues facing people as Muslims. The biggest force is people's emotions.

If you get autonomy and economic initiatives, can you see Kashmir staying with India?

No comments. What the people fight against is India and what the people fight for is not autonomy... that is the slogan of one single party, not of the people. The people's slogan is different. It is for the determination of their future in accordance with their wishes.

Response can be sent to rasheeda@thehindu.co.in

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